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IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF RILEY COUNTY KANSAS
IN THE INTEREST OF
Case No. 15JC29
Case No. 15JC30
Case
No.
15JC31
Case
No. 15JC32
Case No. 15JC33
TRANSCRIPT OF REVIEW HEARING
PROCEEDINGS
had before the
Honorable John F. Bosch
Judge of iv i s ion I of t h e i s t r i c t Court of Ri l ey
County
Kansas a t Manhat tan Kansas
on
the 29th day o f October
2015
100
Courthouse
Plaza
Manhat tan
Kansas
66502
_ ~
~
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APPEARANCES
The Sta t e
of
Kansas
appeared
by
Ms. Bethany C.
Fie lds Deputy Riley County Attorney, 105 Courthouse Plaza,
Manhattan,
Kansas
66502-6017.
The
mother ,
Ms. Amelia Schwab,
appeared in person
and
by
Ms. Miranda Johnson,
of the law o f f i c e of Pat r ick
Caffey,
P.A., 1014
Poyntz
Avenue, Sui te
B
Manhattan, Kansas
66502.
The f a the r Raymond Schwab, appeared in person and by
Mr.
Randy R. Debenham,
of the
Debenham Law
Off ice
3615
S.W.
29th S t r ee t Topeka, Kansas
66614-2077.
The fa the r appeared by
Ms. Brenda
M.
Jordan, Attorney a t
Law,
404 Humboldt S t re e t Sui te
G
Manhattan,
Kansas 66502-6072.
The ch i ld ren
appeared
by
t he i r
Guardian
ad
Litem, Ms
Also appearing:
he
Se
re
ar y
lS
p r e
sen
t r hroug6D
anVel
Deitr ich
Deja Jackson
and Rhonda
Eisenbarger .
CASA i s presen t through Jenn i fe r
Anguiano,
Cathie
Bear and Jamie Stevens .
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1
THE
COURT:
Miss Fie lds
you can
s t a t e
the
case and
2
note the appearances please .
3
4
MS. FIELDS:
Your
Honor
we a re here
in the
i n t e r e s t
o f the S ch w ab l l l l l l l l l ch i l d r en 15JC29
through 33.
St a t e
5 appears through Deputy County At torney Bethany
Fie lds .
6
the
o th e r
ch i ld ren
a re no t
7
8
9 The mother appears in person
and
through counsel Miranda
10
Johnson.
The
fa the r
appears not
in person
but
through
counse l Brenda
Jordan.
Raymond Schwab the f a t h e r
of
the other ch i ld ren appears
in person and with counse l
Randy Debenham.
11
12
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14
15
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18
19
20
21
22
The Secre t a ry
i s
presen t
through KVC Danyel
D ei t r i ch Deja
Jackson
and
Rhonda Eisenbarge r .
C S
i s presen t
through
J en n i f e r Anguiano Cathie Bear
and
Jamie Stevens .
I n t e r e s t ed p a r t i e s p resen t a re
mate rna l
aunt i s a l s o p re s en t .
She has f i l ed a motion for i n t e r e s t e d
par ty
s t a tu s but I know
a l so
Miss Jordan has comments for
the
23
Court
regard ing
her c l i e n t .
24 THE
COURT:
Very wel l .
Al l r i g h t
j u s t to review
a
25
few t h i n g s the Court had the
d i s p o s i t i o n
or held the
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d i s p o s i t i o n
in
t h i s case
on August the
5th
a t which t ime
t h i s
2
case
was s e t fo r a review
hear ing
today.
3 Motions were f i l ed , the f a t h e r s former
a t to rney
f i l e d a
4
motion
to withdraw and
so we
had a motions
hear ing
then
on
5
6
7
September
9th .
The
Court
found t h a t the maternal uncle ,
should have i n t e r e s t ed par ty
8
The Court denied
the
f a t h e r s motion
9 fo r
hi s
a t t o rn ey to
withdraw.
10
Subsequent
to
t h a t t ime
the
Court
o f
Appeals
gran ted Mr.
11
Vinduska s motion
to
withdraw
and t h i s Court then a l s o gran ted
12 hi s
motion
I t h i n k
he
f i l e d a second
motion.
13
The Court has appointed
new
counsel fo r the
fa ther .
The
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
Court found two Shawnee
County a t to rneys ,
o r county a t to rneys
t h a t
were wi l l ing to
t ake the cases
and Mr.
Debenham i s
here in
the CINC case , and
I m
looking fo r the list o f names I c a n t
r e c a l l
the a t to rney appointed
fo r
Mr. Schwab on the
appeal ,
bu t
he now
i s r ep resen ted
by
counse l .
Here
it i s .
MR DEBENHAM:
Your
Honor
it s Rachel Hockenbarger .
THE COURT:
T h a t s
c o r r e c t , Mr. Debenham thank
you
21
and
s h e s
been appointed, so
Mr. Schwab i s now
represen ted
in
22
a l l
aspec t s .
23
So we are on fo r
review today_
I have the CASA repor t .
24 have the r ep o r t from
St .
Francis , and a t t h i s t ime
we should
25 probably take up
the
motion fo r i n t e r e s t ed
s t a t u s
f i l e d
by the
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maternal aun
Now I might
j u s t
s t a t e , in my rev iew of the f i l e , I
prepared t h a t order appoin t ing counse l
fo r
the maternal uncle ,
When f i l l e d out the
form
put in there
and
mis take ,
t
should have
I th ink
t
was
pur e l y
a
because
i s t h e
aunt mar r ied to t h e b i o l o g i ca l materna l
unc le ,
AnthonYI so
a l though t looks on
t he
record t h a t
I v e a l read y
appoin ted
i n t e r e s t ed p a r t y s t a tu s , I h av en t .
So does anybody wish to
be heard
on t h i s ?
MS.
FIELDS: The
St a t e d o e s n t
o b j ec t , Your Honor.
THE
COURT: Mr. Debenham.
MR DEBENHAM:
Your
Honor Mr.
Schwab
o b j ec t s .
Grandparents
can be invo lved au to mat i ca l ly , placement t would
make sense fo r them to be i n t e r e s t e d
p a r t i e s , but
t h e r e s no
r e a l r eason fo r
to be al lowed
to
be an
i n t e r e s t ed p a r t y .
We a l read y have a l o t o f
p a r t i e s
who a re invo lved in t h i s
proceed ing a l read y . I m
not
sure t h a t we need anymore cooks
adding
to
t he
b ro th , so to
speak .
THE
COURT:
Very wel l .
Anybody
e l se wish to be
heard?
MS. FIELDS;
Your Honor
I would j u s t remind the
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-
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ch i l d ren ,
so
s h e s been to a l l - - to most of the cour t
hear ings , I won t say
a l l ,
because I d i d n t go back and look
a
the f i l e , s h e s been ac t ive ly here a t
t h e
hear ings and does
have a ves ted i n t e r e s t in her
nieces
and
nephews.
THE COURT: Very wel l .
I might note in looking a t
the s t a t u t e , KS
38-2241,
the s t a t u t e
c l e a r l y
prov ides
under
subsec t ion E, other i n t e r e s t e d p a r t i e s ,
any per son with whom
the ch i ld
has r e s id ed a t
any
t ime who i s wi th in the four th
degree o f r e l a t i o n s h i p - - which would t ake in a maternal
aunt - -
fo u r th
degree
of
r e l a t i o n s h i p to
the
ch i ld , o r to
whom
the ch i l d has c lo se
emotional t i e s
may, upon motion,
be made an
i n t e r e s t ed p a r t y if the Court determines t h a t it i s in the b es
i n t e r e s t o f t h e
ch i ld .
We do have a
l o t
o f cooks in
the
ki tchen , so
to
speak ,
Mr
Debenham, but my rev iew of the f i l e i nd ica t e s t h a t indeed the
ch i ld ren had l ived with the maternal
aunt a t
some poin t ,
and
I m
assuming
t h e r e s a c lo se emotional r e l a t i o n s h i p , i f not , i s
anyone
want ing
to
p resen t
evidence
in t h a t
regard?
I f
not , the Court wi l l
f ind t h a t t h e
maternal
aunt ,
should be determined
to
be an
i n t e r e s t e d
p a r t y .
I f she des i re s
counse l , s h e l l have
to
- - and she c a n
a f fo rd
it
s h e l l have
to
apply
to
t h e
Court
and
fill
out
an
app l i ca t ion and
t h a t s up
to
her
to
dec ide
if she wants -
wishes
to
be r ep resen ted .
So with t h a t sa id , a re we ready
to
proceed to
the
review
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1 hear ing today counsel?
2
MS JORDAN:
Your Honor I would
ask the
Court to
3 cons ider
r e l i e v i n g me
a t l e a s t fo r
now.
4
5
Mr.
IIIIIIII
if the
Court
- -
having
rev iewed the
C o u r t s
repor t , w i l l
have seen
had
some d i f f i c u l t i e s ,
not
6 only wants - - t h a t have been expressed as a r e su l t of
7
l i v ing with him
but s in ce then, h e s
had
co n t in u a t io n o f t h a t .
8
What he was
exper ienc ing when he was
l i v i n g with
him
was
9 v i o l en t behavior and compulsive l y ing and
now
s in ce being
10 removed
from
his home
h e s
persona l ly t o ld tha t
h
11
would have
someone
break in to h i s
house
to kick hi s ass , and
12
t h a t s a quote from
13
So
fo r
t hose reasons ,
does
not
wish
to be
14 cons ide red as a
re in t egra t ion
opt ion
any
l onger .
15
Should t h e re become a poin t in
t ime
when
the Sta t e i s
16 pursuing
permanent guard iansh ip o r t e rmin a t io n , i.e.
the
case
17 plan changes from t h a t r e i n t e g ra t i o n which it
i s
a t
t h i s poin t
18
in
t ime then what my proposal would be t h a t I be
con tac ted and
19 cont inued in fo r schedul ing purposes , but a t t h i s poin t in t ime
20
h e s expressed not only to the case workers but
a l so to m
t h a
21
because o f those behaviors and the lack o f
a b i l i t y to
main ta in
22 t h a t and the
problems
t h a t
he
was
exper ienc ing
with
the
23
extended
family and t r y i n g to put a handle
on
t h a t , he does no
24
wish to be
cons ide red
fo r r e i n t e g ra t i o n , so fo r
t hose reasons ,
25 I d
ask to
be
excused from
t h i s
hear ing and
fu tu re
s e t t i n g s
L _____________________________________________________________________________
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1
unless
and u n t i l
e i t h e r
he recon tac t s myself or the agenc ies
2
and/or
we move to
the
next phase beyond r e i n t e g ra t i o n .
3
TH
COURT:
So
were you
aware
your c l i e n t wa sn t
4 going to be here
today,
Miss Jordan?
5 MS
J O R D f u ~
He
had
con tac ted me
on
Monday and
asked
6 me
i
he needed to
be and
t h a t s when I
asked him
about
t he
7
i n format ion
I had r ead
in t he
repor t s
about
his
s t a t ement s
to
them
and
the
quote t h a t
j u s t
read the
Court
i s
what got
9
back from
him
as to
why
he
had
t o l d them t h a t , t h a t h e d been
10
11
12
t h rea t en ed .
TH
COURT:
t h a t
the
f a t h e r
has
All
r i g h t .
s t a t e d
he
was
Well
see in
t he
repor t
quote ,
done and so
l e t
13 take a
look. I f
I b i o l o g i ca l paren t d o e s n t want to be
14
represen ted , d o es n t want
to
appear
- -
me
15 MS INGELS:
Your
Honor
j u s t
so
the Co u r t s aware
16
has i n d i ca t ed
when
I met with
him
t h a t h e s
ac tua l ly
17 t r i e d to make con tac t with his fa the r , and
h i s
f a t h e r s
not
18
r e tu rn ed
his c a l l s .
19
I d o n t
know
t h a t t h a t s here
or t h e re r e a l l y fo r t h i s
20 Court to make an ev i d en t i a ry determinat ion as to
wha t s
21 occur red .
I th ink a t
t h i s
pOint Miss Jordan could
be excused
22 from t h e o th e r cases
from
appear ing, not n eces s a r i l y r e l eased
23
as
counse l ,
but
excused from a t t en d in g u n t i l such
t ime
as
- - i
24
t he
cases move
towards
t e rmina t ion o r
permanent c us t od i a nsh i p
25 o r
something o f
t h a t n a tu re , then we could n o t i fy her t h a t she
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1
needs
to come
back,
or in the meantime, what we ve done in
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5
7
8
9
10
12
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16
o t h e r
cases ,
i f
makes co n tac t with
Miss
Jordan and
says I v e changed my mind, then obviously she could l e t us
know
and be
back invo lved
in th ings .
MS
JORDAN:
Or even i f
he
does
t h a t with the agency
Your
Honor, I t h in k
t h ey v e
l e f t t open
ended,
t h a t i f he
changes hi s
mind, they
obviously
d i d n t shu t
the
door nor am I .
He knows he can co n tac t me and I did t e l l him, in fac t , when h
asked i f he had
to
be here , pa r t o f my response to
him
was
ask ing about the r ep o r t , the
i n format ion
t h ey v e provided, and
then a l s o ask ing him what do you want me to
cont inue
doing i f
t h a t s your
pos i t ion , and
t h a t s
when
he responded with t h i s
i n format ion
ex p la in in g why he had
sa id
h e s done, and then
reconf i rming
to
me t h a t yes, h e s done.
THE
COURT:
Al l r i g h t .
when t h i s case
was
f i l e d .
I s he st ll - - w h at s his date o f b i r t h , I d o n t
17
have t h a t
r i g h t in f ron t of me?
18 I s
he yet?
19
20
MS. JOHNSON:
THE COURT:
December
December
r i g h t .
21 Does the s t a t e have
any
o b j ec t io n t o r e l ea s i n g
22 Miss Jordan?
23
24
MS
FIELDS: No Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Very
wel l ,
Miss
Jordan, you
are
r e l eased
25 and you
might
as well
j u s t
leave
t h e cour t room, j u s t t ake
a
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2
3
moment.
MS JORDAN:
Thank
you.
THE COURT:
Thank
you.
1
4
All
r i g h t ,
now
w e l l
proceed with
the
rev iew
hear ing ,
and
5
Miss Fie lds .
6
MS
FIELDS:
Your
Honor I would
ask t he
Court to
7 admit the CASA r ep o r t
dated October
13th 2015 and
the
Kaw
8 Val ley r ep o r t
da ted
October 26th
of
2015.
9
10
MS INGELS: No
o b j ec t i o n .
MR
DEBENHAM:
Your
Honor
I v e
got
the
KVC
repor t ,
11 may have been sen t the other two repor t s , but I have
not seen
12
them
so
I
d o n t
fee l
competent
to objec t
or
not objec t
on
13
t h e i r
admission.
4
15
16
repor t s ,
THE COURT:
All r i g h t , so the two
- -
other two
only other repor t we have i s a CASA repor t .
MR
D E B E N H f f i ~
Okay
I thought
I
heard
there
was
17 some other
one.
18
THE COURT: I d o n t know
what happened
Mr.
Debenham
19
sor ry
you
h av en t
had
a
chance
to look
a t
these
and you do need
20 it
21
MR
DEBENHAM: I t was
probably
sen t , because I got
22
l i k e 550
pages
of
s tu f f .
23 THE COURT:
Does anyone have
an ex t ra
copy of the
24
CAS
A r ep o r t we could
give
Mr. Debenham?
25
MS FIELDS: We do Your Honor we have one.
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THE COURT: Your objec t ion
i s
noted Mr. Debenham
but the Court
wil l
admit
the
CASA repor t ,
and the Court
wi l l
admit
the KVC
repor t dated
October the 26th
2015.
And
you
can
proceed
Miss
Fie lds .
1
MS
FIELDS: Your Honor
the
court
repor t
from KVC
ind ica tes tha t the
ICPC
was denied and so
I
asked the
agency
to send us
more
documentation
regarding
tha t , and they
sen t
a
l e t t e r which I bel i eve a l l counse l rece ived a copy of: The
l e t t e r from the
Department
of
Human Serv ices
in
Larimer County
Colorado
the
l e t t e r s dated
October
22nd 2015 and
it s
from
Ju l i e
Rudley
Socia l Case Worker 2.
I would ask
t h a t
tha t l e t t e r be admit ted and I would
mark
it as
S t a t e s
Exhib i t N o . 1 .
MS
INGELS: No
objec t ion .
MR DEBENHAM: No objec t ion .
MS
JOHNSON:
No
objec t ion .
THE
COURT:
Very well then the l e t t e r from
Larimer
county
Department
o f Human Serv ices
dated
October 22
2015
i s
admit ted .
MS
FIELDS:
Your
Honor
I would j u s t reques t
tha t
the parents comply with
the
court with the
case p lan
t a sk .
It s
my
unders tanding
the
case
plan
has
j u s t
been approved
by
DCF and sen t
to
the agency.
I
have
my s t a f f
pr in t ing o f f
a
copy
of
each case p lan fo r the mother and f a the r and plan
to
give
it
to them e i t h e r during court if it
ge ts
done in t ime or
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1
1 a t the conc lus ion of the hear ing
so
t h a t
each
paren t
has
- -
2 each paren t be ing Mr.
and
Mrs. Schwab - - each have a copy of
3 each
c h i l d s
case plan
t ask so
t h a t
t h e r e s
no
confus ion
as
to
4
what
they
need
to
do
to
work
t he case p lan goa l o f
5
r e in t eg r a t i o n .
6 In
add i t ion ,
Your
Honor, I d ask the Court - - so I d the
7 Court
to adopt
the case
plan
and order
to
paren t s comply
with
8 it, and two, I would ask the Court to order t h a t the paren ts
9 comply with the cond i t ions as o u t l i n ed in t h i s l e t t e r ,
S t a t e s
10
Exhib i t
N o . 1 .
11 T h ere s s ev e ra l
t h in g s t h a t
Colorado
wants to
see happen
12 before
they a re
even w i l l i n g t o re look a t an
ICPC
placement of
13 the ch i l d ren ,
and
so I would ask the Court
to
orde r the paren t
14
to comply with t h a t .
15 I m no t
agree ing
n eces s a r i l y with t h e i r t ime frame o r
16
t h e i r
t ime
schedules
t h a t
t h ey v e
l a i d
out
in the
l e t t e r
from
7 Colorado , but as
fa r
as
the t asks
themselves such as random
20
such as marr iage counse l ing ,
mental
h ea l t h assessment ,
types
of
th ings . An i n t eg ra t ed assessment
for
both
mental h ea l t h and subs tance abuse , I would ask t h a t the paren t
21 be
orde red
to comply with
a l l t hose
t a sks .
22
I d
ask
t h a t
the
v i s i t s remain
as
the
Court
has
prev ious l
23
orde red ,
and
it s y unders t and ing , and
I know Miss
Inge l s
w i l
24 address t h i s in
more
d e t a i l , t h a t
25
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7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
would l eave
t h a t up
to
the Cour t .
way
or the o t h e r .
I do not f ee l
s t rong ly
one
THE COURT: Very
wel l .
MS.
FIELDS:
Your
Honor,
the
other
t h in g
i s ,
I am
reques t ing the
Court
appoin t an educat iona l advocate for the
ch i ld ren ,
e s p e c i a l l y
has been
nine
weeks.
placement ,
He i s s t ru g g l i n g in school and it
I know t h a t the mate rna l aunt and
has been
very
d i l i g e n t
with
1
keeping KV appr i sed o f how h e s
doing
educa t iona l ly , but h e s
s t ru g g l i n g ,
and
so
I
would
ask
for
an
educat iona l
advocate
be
appointed fo r
him
and to
Sh e s c u r r e n t l y not having speech a t school but
ra the r
having
to
go
to
an independent
p ro v id e r .
I
t h in k i f
t h e re was
an ed u ca t io n a l advocate appointed,
they
could b e t t e r
naviga te
the school piece such t h a t - - so
t h a t
can have
t h e i r
educa t ion
needs
met
in
a
more
t imely
mat te r .
We re
nine weeks
i n t o
t h i s school semester
and
other than
j u s t what the classroom t each e r and
have
worked
out toge ther rega rd ing
homework
and
makeup classroom
work, t h e r e s not a l o t subs tan t ive being done, and
a
grader
and t h i s i s a
c r i t i c a l
a l l s c h o o l s c r i t ic a l ,
but
in
my own
exper ience ,
t h i s
appears
to
be
a
very
c r i t i c a l
year and
h e s
not grasp ing the mat e r i a l because he d o es n t hav
t h e
foundat ion from the pas t school
years
and h e s
very
much
s t ru g g l i n g and I th ink it s
a f fec t ing
him.
I t h in k
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1
1 would ag ree t h a t it s
a f f e c t i n g
him emot iona l ly
2
and making
it hard
on everybody
because h e s
s t r u g g l i n g
and
he
3 knows he i s .
4
So
I
would
ask
fo r
an
e duc a t i ona l
advoca te
f o r
a l l
5 c h i l d r e n
to
make sure t h e i r
e duc a t i on
needs
a re
met because
6 t h e i r p aren t s a re
f a r
away
but
if
noth ing e l s e
a t l e a s t fo r
7 those two.
TH
COURT:
Those two
r e f e r r i n g
to
MS.
FIELDS: Yes.
TH
COURT:
What
about
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
MS.
FIELDS:
It
was
my
impress ion or under s tand ing
t h a t
he i s r e c e i v i ng
suppor t and
s e r v i c e s .
He cou ld
use
an
15 educa t ion advoca te , too .
?
16
I
was
t h i nk i ng
t h a t
the school
was
going
to
be
doing
some
17 s t u f f because o f h i s psycholog ica l ev a lu a t io n t h a t they had
18 but
maybe t he y still co u l d n t
do it.
T h a t s
why in
r e a l i t y I m
19
ask ing
f o r
an
educa t ion advoca te fo r
all
of the ch i ld ren .
20
y o u r e going to appoin t one
f o r
one it seems to me it make
21
sense to appoin t
one f o r
all o f them.
I f
it t u rn s out t h a t
I f
22
t he y
d o n t
need
to
do
anyth ing f o r
okay
t hen
they
d o n
23
24
25
have
to
do
anyth ing
f o r him.
THE COURT:
Let me ask,
has
t h e re been i n d iv id u a l
educa t ion p lans made fo r each
o f
t he ch i ld ren ?
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MS. FIELDS:
That
c a n t happen un l e s s
the
pa r e n t s
2 reques t
it or t he e du c a t ion advoca te r eq u es t s it.
3
4
5
TH COURT:
Or the
Cour t
o rd e r s it; co r rec t ?
MS. FIELDS:
That - -
I
d o n t
know
t h a t t h a t s t r u e .
MS. JOHNSON:
In
my
e xpe r i e nc e with o th e r school s ,
6
Your
Honor t he
Court
c a n t or de r
it, it has to
be t he p aren t s
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
The
p aren t
because
I v e t r ie d
as
a
gua r d i a n ad l i t em becaus
it says in
my or de r s
t h a t
I
can
p a r t i c i p a t e
wi th schools and
a l l of
t h a t ,
and
I
t r i e d myse l f to w ri t e l e t t e r s to
t he
school
to ge t
the s p ec i a l t e s t i n g and
I
c a n t do it so the
c ou r t c a n
do it. The s p ec i a l educa t ion laws
r e q u i r e
t he p aren t s
to
s i gn
o f f
on
it.
TH COURT: I f ind
t h a t hard
to b e l i ev e but - -
MS. FIELDS:
It s because it s
f ed e ra l
law
and
not
15
s t a t e ,
othe rwise , I
t h in k the
Cour t
could ,
if
it
was a s t a t e
16 law
but because it s f ed e ra l
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
TH COURT:
W e l l
move on t hen ,
a ny th ing
e l s e?
MS.
FIELDS: No.
THE COURT:
Very wel l .
Miss
In g e l s ,
you a re
the
GAL I b e l i e v e ,
which i s unusual
MS. INGELS:
Your Honor
I would
agree
wi th t he
S t a t e s
r eq u es t .
I
do
t h i nk a t t h i s
p o in t r e i n t e g r a t i o n i s
still
v iab le
with
a
p aren t ,
and I would
a s k
t he Court
I
24 guess a t t h i s p o in t my concern i s
t he
p a r e n t s e i t h e r , and
I
25
speak s p e c i f i c a l l y
of the mother
and
Raymond because
Mr.
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1
_._ _ _---------
2
3
4
5
6 going to
be asking
the
Court
to make
7 a
f ind ing
t ha t
r e in teg ra t ion i s
not viab le because
these
8
ch i ld ren
d o n t
need to languish
in
the system while
the
parent
9
decide whether
or not t h e y r e going to work within the system.
10
11
12
13
So a t t h i s poin t I th ink we
need
to give them more t ime
4
and allow them to work the re in teg ra t ion
process .
However,
I
15 j u s t
want
them to
know
t h a t
if w come back
and
we
still
have
16 them f igh t ing
of ac (ual1y doing
these th ings , my pos i t ion
\-,;ill
17 not be t he same a t t ha t
point
in t ime.
18 S p ec i f i c a l l y as
to the
educa t iona l advocate ,
I
agree with
19 the Sta te ,
I
t h ink
one
needs to
be
appointed for a l l
the
20
ch i ld ren .
I know t h e r e s
an
i ssue
with the IEP. However,
I
21 agree wi th the
Court
in the sense t h a t
the chi ldren a re in
22 S ~ a t e s
custody, i . e . , the
l ega l
guardian
and
paren t i s
the
23 Sta te
in
my opinion , not
the
b io lo g i ca l
pa ren t s ,
so
I th ink
th
24 Court can order the rEP.
However,
the school may not
honor
25 t ha t .
I
d o n t
know
what it hur t s a t t h i s poin t
to
have
the
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1
Court
order
t h a t .
I f the school honors it,
grea t ,
i f they
2 d o n t , then w e l l dea l with t h a t , but I t h i n k
we
do need
to
go
3
ahead and
put t h a t
i n t h e re .
But
I
th ink we do
need to go
4 ahead and put t h a t in t h e re .
5
6
I
a l so th ink we need
the ed u ca t io n a l
advoca te ,
s p e c i f i c a l l y aga in , s s t ru g g l i n g . I
th ink
i s
7 s t ru g g l i n g , but we got his grades j u s t before cour t and
he
8 seems to be doing p r e t t y well and
i s
p a r t i c ip a t i n g and i s very
9 well l iked in
school .
10
11
Fi n a l l y
as
to
I would address the
Court
t ha t
I
hav
met with
a
couple of weeks
ago
and
he
i s out
in the h a l l
12 today, and i f the
Court
would l i k e to i n q u i r e
as
to him
e i t h e
13
14
15
16
in the courtroom or in chambers I would leave t h a t up to you
but he
does
not want
to have any con tac t
with
his
mother or
Raymond.
e
does
not
want
to be invo lved in the phone c a l l s ,
he does not want to be involved in
t h e
v i s i t s .
I know t h e r e s
17
a v i s i t
se t
up
fo r
today
a f t e r
Court
and he
does not want to
b
18
involved in
t ha t .
19
That be ing sa id , as the guard ian ad
l i t em,
I
d o n t
20 n eces s a r i l y agree t ha t he
should
have t h a t
d ec i s io n
making
21
au thor i ty a t his
age.
I th ink u n t i l
the
case
plan goal
i s
22
changed
as long as it s r e in t eg r a t i o n , I th ink he
should
stil
23 a t l e a s t
p a r t i c i p a t e
with his mother
a t
t h i s p o in t
24
25
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3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
THE COURT:
Miss Johnson.
MS JOHNSON:
Your
Honor
s in ce t he
mother
w i l l be
11 provided t he case p lan
12 Miss Fie ld s , do you have t hose cop ies?
13
MS
FIELDS; Yes
I do.
1
14
MS JOHNSON: May I ,
before
I agree or
d i sagree
with
15 them?
16
MS
FIELDS: Jus t
fo r the record , the
mother
and
17 f a t h e r a re r ece iv in g a copy o f
each
o f t h e ch i ld r en s
case
plan
18 t a s k s .
19 It s
very
d u p l i c i t o u s
but - -
20
21
22
23
24
word
THE
COURT:
I m sor ry ,
t h e y r e
very
what?
MS FIELDS:
I
d o n t know
t h a t
I m
using
t he
r i g h t
t h e r e s l o t s
o f d u p l i ca t i o n s .
THE COURT;
All
r i g h t .
MS FIELDS: And so
each
paren t
has ,
though a copy
25
of
each
c h i l d s
case plan .
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1
1 THE COURT: Now would
t h i s
be t he same case p lan
2
t asks
t h a t were inc luded
in the repor t from
KVC?
3 MS.
FIELDS: Yes, it
j u s t
took
a
long t ime for
DCF
to
4
5
a c t u a l l y
approve it.
THE COURT:
So
I
want
to
make
sure I
under s tand t h i s
6
then.
7 The case p lan t a sk s
are what
co n s t i t u t e the permanency
8
plan ; i s t h a t
co r rec t ?
9
10
11
12
MS.
FIELDS: Correc t .
THE COURT:
So
t h i s
has not yet been d i s t r i b u t e d .
This
i s the f i r s t t h a t t h e p a ren t s have r ece iv ed
it.
MS.
FIELDS: It s
the
f i r s t t h a t t h ey v e
rece ived
th
13 approved copy from
DCF. However,
t h ey v e been made aware of
14
what t he
t asks
a re , they
j u s t
d i d n t have t h e ac t u a l case p l a n
15 document.
16
17
18
THE COURT:
Very
wel l .
All
r i g h t , Miss Johnson.
MS JOHNSON: Your Honor, it s my
under s tand ing t h a t
19 there was
a
case p lan confe rence
when
t h ese t asks were
20 addressed but
I m
looking a t
it,
t h e r e s
5
t asks fo r
t he
21
22
23
24
25
mother,
t h a t s
j u s t on t he one t h a t
I m looking
a t .
I
d o n t
know
how
much of
t h a t
she
...
I
know
she
disagreed
with
some of
it,
and t h a t s what I m t r y i n g to read
th rough
r i g h t now, and
t h a t s why t h e y r e wai t ing
on t he
f i n a l approved copy
from DCF
So
I guess we
would l i k e to
p o in t out
t h a t it s
not
t h a t
8/18/2019 Schwab Transcript
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they
h av en t
been
in compl iance with t h e case plan,
but up
to
2 t h i s
p o in t ,
they
d i d n t
have a copy
of
it t hey
d i d n t know
2
3 what a l l t he t a sk s
were
and now t he y
do
and
up
- - I t h ink th
4
o th e r b ig g es t
concern
fo r
t he
mother
with
t h ese
case p lan
t a sk
5
i s
t he co s t
as s o c i a t ed with
it.
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13 fo l low t h e
recommendations
a t a
minimum or
cont inue
- - or
14 orde r the
t asks as o u t l i n ed
fo r Colorado .
15
It
a l s o s t a t e s
in here
t h a t
she s h a l l p a r t i c i p a t e
in
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
f ami ly
t he rapy
with I
know
in
my
c onve r sa t i on
wi th
her
t h a t i s
a concern as to how
she
can do
t h a t
from
the
s t a t e of
Colorado
so
I
would ask
t h a t KV be orde red
to
he lp
f ind
a
family
t h e r ap i s t t h a t
w i l l
do
fami ly
t he rapy over
the
phone
between the mother and
and
t h a t may a l s o he lp f a c i l i t a t
some o f
the phone c a l l i s s u es and the
v i s i t a t i o n i s su es , if
t h e r e s
a
family
t h e r ap i s t
invo lved wi th
t h a t ,
but
a t t h i s
p o in t , t h e mother does not
have
t he funds to
d r i v e
to Kansas
bi -weekly to p a r t i c ip a t e in f ami ly
t he rapy
with
I d o n
25 know if t h a t s a
t a s k
of a l l
the ch i l d ren ,
I j u s t
happen to
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2
3
4
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
2
have
case
p lan t h a t
I m looking a t .
I
would ask th tlllllllle
ordered
to
p a r t i c ip a t e
ln
phone
c a l l s and v i s i t s with his mother
a t t h i s
poin t in
t ime
as the
goa l
i s
r e i n t e g ra t i o n
in
t h i s case . Again, I d ask
t ha t
t h e re
be
t h a t family therapy
se t
up so hopefu l ly t h a t can be
f a c i l i t a t e d by
phone
so t h a t she
can
p a r t i c i p a t e in t h a t with
him, and
I would ask
the
Court
to cons ider
the
f inanc ia l
burde
t h a t some of t h i s i s on the fami ly .
As fo r the educa t iona l advocates , the
mother
i s not in
agreement with having an educat iona l advoca te appointed.
She
still has
r i g h t s as
a
paren t to
look
out fo r her
c h i l d s
educat iona l
needs
and would
l i k e
to be
the
decis ionmaker on
t h a t , and I
th ink in
p as t cases we ve
had i s s u es
a t t empt ing
to
appoint ed u ca t io n a l
advoca tes when the paren t s were still in
the p ic tu r e and to
be
consu l ted .
I
th ink ,
in
fac t ,
we were
t o ld t h a t
t hey
would not appoint educa t iona l advocate a t t h a t
poin t , and
it
wasn t by the Cour t ,
it
was
by the name?
MS FIELDS: DCF
MS JOHNSON:
Was it
DCF?
And so a t t h i s poin t I
th ink
t h a t
the
paren t s
need to
be
kept
appr ized of placement and KVC as
to
what those concerns
a re .
I f the school
has
some concerns , t hey need to provide
t h a t
i n format ion
to them.
I was confused in reading the CASA r ep o r t
because
it s a i d
25
I
t h a t
d i d n t need
spec ia l
educa t ion
se rv ice s ,
d i d n t need
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2
1
an IEP
but ye t
he was i n s p e c i a l ed
and
my
under s tand ing t h a
2
in
or de r
to be in s p ec i a l ed you had to have
an
IEP
so I
was
3
wonder ing if maybe he was in , l i ke , T i t l e
1
r ead ing c l a s s e s
4
which d o e s n t
r eq u i re an
IEP. I
d o n t know e x a c t l y
what
t h a t
5
was
i n rega rds to .
6
So
t hos e a re Our
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
MS. INGELS:
Your Honor
I d l i k e
to respond to t h a t
y i s su e
t h a t
I
have
with t he
pa r e n t s o b jec t in g ,
we
h a v e n t heard from
t he
f a t h e r , but as to t he
educa t iona l
advoca te ,
we have
the argument t h a t
t he f i n an c i a l i s su e
of
g back to Kansas to
do
t h ese t h i n g s , y
e t t
he
y
h o s
F LSE
to ~ r o
a f t e r i ~
caS
e s t a r t e d and if we
have
the
argument as to how
to
do
t he
t a s k s t h a t t h e y r e
asked to
complete ,
how a re t hey
going
t o ge t back
here
to do t h i ngs
wit
t he
school?
So you d o n t
ge t
to make t h a t argument in
my
opin ion and
say d o n t
hold
it a g a i n s t us
t h a t
we
v o l u n t a r i l y chose to move
to Colorado when we
c a n t
do
a l l
t he se t h in g s
t h a t f a r away
bu
ye t
we
d o n t want you to a ppo in t an
e duc a t i ona l
advocate to
look out f o r t he c h i l d r e n s
b es t
i n t e r e s t in educa t ion because
we want
to be ones invo lved , even though
we
c a n t be t h e re a l l
t he t ime because we r e
in Colorado
and c a n t
a f f o r d
to come
back .
MS. JOHNSON: Your
Honor
THE COURT:
One second .
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2
I want
to
hear from
the
f a t h e r f i r s t
and
then l e t you
2 respond , Miss Johnson.
3
MR DEBENHAM: Thank you,
Your
Honor.
4 We ve got
severa l
i s sues , did you want me j u s t to address
5 r i g h t now
the
educat iona l advocate , or can I go through a l l o f
6
the
i s s u es t h a t have been
brought
up?
7
THE
COURT: You can go
th rough a l l the i s sues , Mr.
8 Debenham.
9
MR DEBENHAM:
The educat iona l advocate ,
fa ther
has
10 a l read y
contac ted a t
l e a s t
one
of the schoo l s ,
offe red to
s ign
11
whatever he needs
to
to ge t an IEP done. He wants 0
be
12 in
volved
th e edu c t on of i s klds
,
so
fr om h i s e r s p e c i v ~
13
he oesn
t
r
eaLly
see he
eed
or an d u c t ~ o o c
14 becaus he w
an
t s - -
he
wants 0 g e t
~ n v o l v e d and to
sign
15
whatever he needs
to
s ign
and
has t o ld
a t
l e a s t
one
of the
16
school s
t h a t he
wants
to do t ha t , so
again , we
d o n t see
the
17
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educat iona l advocate as
r e a l l y necessa ry
fo r t h a t reason. In
fac t ,
yeah,
there
was even a
conference c a l l l a s t
week with
a l
t h e t each e r s a t
one
of the school s , so the process i s a l ready
s t a r t i n g .
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e f fo r t s ,
to r e in t eg r a t e
the
ch i l d ren
with the
paren t s ,
and
d e f i n i t e l y between and the p a ren t s ,
t h e r e s
going to
hav
to be some
s o r t
o f family counse l ing .
Now m y
a
i t
d if f i cu l t because dad was moved
to
enve r 0 wo k a t t he VA the e ra t her
tha
Topeka not a .
h
J s buL
he
choice
a f the oompc ny so we ve
got a
big
dis tance between the two
but
t h e re may
be
something t h a t can
b
worked out , and from my experience, anytime
t h a t
t h e r e s a
t h e r ap i s t
t r y i n g
to
work when you ve got a
kid
who d o es n t
wan
to t a l k with one
or
both
of
the
p a ren t s , t hey
always s t a r t wit
phone c a l l s anyway,
and
then
go to Skype and
then
t r y to do
some i n t e r ac t i o n s between them.
The personal i n t e r ac t i o n s probably won t be happening fo r
a
littl b i t
i n to
the fu tu re
so
a t t h i s poin t
I th ink
we
should
- -
the Court should
orde r t h a t
t h e re be some so r t
of
family counse l ing
to
t r y to
get the
heal ing p rocess done with
t h i s fami ly .
The
cos t s , my
c l i e n t has no problem with
any
o f the case
plan
t a sks .
He has
no
problem with
anyth ing
t h a t
the
depar tment o f human resources
from Lar imer
County
i s
recommending.
e
i s going
to do those r eg a rd l e s s o f whether
you order
them or
not ,
s imply because he
wants the
ICPC to be
success fu l and he wants to ge t the
kids
out t he re , or a t l e a s t
hopefu l ly a t l e a s t
four , but
he would
l i k e
to
have a l l
f ive o f
them
out
t h e re
He i s looking
forward
t o g e t t i n g the ICPC
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process done as
quick ly
as poss ib le and g e t t i n g his par t of
t h i s done
so
he
can ge t
the kids
back as quick ly as
poss ib le .
2
But we ve got the co s t s , and s in ce th e
Sta t e
i s t a sked
with
t r y i n g
to
r e in t eg r a t e t he
p a ren t s ,
I
t h i n k
where
there
a r
onerous co s t s involved,
I
th ink the Sta t e needs to be
a t l e a s t
a s s i s t i n g
but
hopefu l ly
paying
fo r those
courses . The courses
can
be t aken
in
Colorado
but
t ha t
d o e s n t mean t h a t Kansas
c a n t be send ing money to
t hose
companies in Colorado, o r a t
l e a s t I v e never
heard
t ha t the St a t e o f Kansas c a n t pay fo r
s e rv i ces i n
anothe r
s t a t e .
In
fac t ,
my
c l i e n t
t e l l s me the
Sta t e
has a l ready pa id fo r drug
and
a lcohol eva lua t ion out
in
Colorado which my c l i e n t
has
a l ready
done
I th ink
t h a t addresses most every th ing .
THE COURT: When
was
the drug
and
a lcohol eva lua t ion
done?
My rev iew of the notes
i nd ica t e
it h a s n t been done.
MR
DEBENHAM:
h a s n t happened.
I
th ink it s been scheduled and it
Can I have my c l i e n t
s t and up
and tell the Court exac t ly
what
the
s i t u a t i o n
i s ?
THE COURT:
He
sure
can.
Go ahead , s i r .
MR SCHWAB:
Thank you,
Your Honor.
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KVC
as
well as
the Department
o f Human Serv ices
in
Colorado , have worked out
how
t h i s
i s going
to work and
they v
a l read y we were
wai t ing
on a r e f e r r a l and a
promise
o f
payment
o r something l i k e t h a t which KVC
has
provided, and
so
we
have
scheduled
it but
no, it
has not yet been completed,
but we have
it
place .
Colorado
i s
he lp ing us with t h e i r
resources .
They c a n t
help
f i n an c i a l l y
but
t h e y r e
plugging
us
i n to
p laces
where
the
would have us do
it
if the case was
t he re ,
and
so
KVC
so fa r
has s a i d t h a t t h ey r e w i l l i n g to f i n an c i a l l y a s s i s t in some of
t h a t p ro ces s .
I d o n t know
about the
whole case plan, but we
are
moving
forward
with
tha t r igh t
now;
THE
COURT: Very
wel l ,
thank you.
Mr. Debenham.
MR. DEBENHAM:
And
before
I
sit down,
I
want
to say
tha t I would
l i k e
to c a l l so - - I d
l i k e
to
get
some t e s t imony from her on
the case
plan t a s k s and where we ar
and
a l so
on the ICPC
about t h e i r i n t e r ac t i o n s back
and fo r th
with
Colorado and what may be happening down the
road
here,
bu
we
can do
t ha t
a f t e r we ve
t a lked
about the o t h e r
i ssues .
THE COURT: Very wel l then.
Miss Johnson, you had something e l s e you were wanting to
respond
t o?
MS. JOHNSON:
I th ink
a l l
I
was
going
to say, Your
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1
Honor, i s t h a t the mother , wi th Mr. Schwab, if
t h e y r e
sen t th
2 paperwork fo r t he I E P s , t he y would
rev iew
t h a t and r e tu rn it.
3 At t h i s
po i n t
in t ime, r dOll L th
i n k
anyt h
ng
s bee n
p r o
vided
4
t o
t hem , -
no th e S
tj
11 r e
pare
n ts ,
t h e y s t
il
l have
a r n a
5
r
ign t s t o mq
ke
edUcatlona i decisio ns [or
Lhelr chl ldre
n, and
w e d l i k e t he Cour t to t ake t h a t i n t o co n s id e ra t io n and give
7
them
an
oppor t un i t y .
I v e not seen anyth ing and maybe - -
t h e r
8
may be t e s t imony one way or t he o th e r ,
but
t h a t d o e s n t mean
9
it s been
provided
to them and t h a t t he y h a v e n t complied to
10
t h i s
p o i n t , because
I know Mr.
Schwab
did p a r t i c i p a t e
in
11
c on f e r e nc e s wi th the school s , and if an
e duc a t i ona l
advocate i
12 a ppo in t e d , t hey can be
c u t
out
o f
t he loop
and not - -
and
t he y
13
won t m a in t a in communicat ion .
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THE COURT:
In Colorado or in Kansas?
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MR
DEBENHAM: Both in Colorado .
2 THE COURT:
Very
wel l , t h a n k you.
3 Al l
r i g h t ,
a t
t h i s
t ime, un le s s someone e l s e has any th ing
4 e l s e we need to address , i we need
some t e s t imony,
i you wis
5 to c a l l
someone,
you may.
6 MR DEBENHAM:
7
8
THE COURT:
Very we l l .
9 c a l l e d as a wi tne s s
on be ha l f
o f
the
f a t h e r ,
Raymond Schwab,
10 be ing
o f l eg a l age
and a f t e r having
been
irst
du ly
sworn,
11
t e s t i f i e d as fo l lows :
12 DIRECT EXAMINATION
13
Y MR DEBENHAM:
14
15
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Q.
A.
Q.
A
Q.
A
Q.
A.
Q.
Can you
i d e n t i f y
y o u r s e l f
fo r t he r e c o r d ?
And do you work f o r
KVC
-
Yes.
Behav io ra l h e a l t h c a r e , I n c . ?
And you
a r e
t he c a s e
manager
on
t h i s c a s e ?
Yes.
You ve been working with
bo th
o f t he
p a r e n t s on t he
c a s e
p la n
and b a s i c a l l y th r ough t h i s whole c a s e ?
Yes.
And
you have - - we j u s t - - you ve been work ing with them
on t he case p la n
and
you ve j u s t r e c e n t l y , j u s t very
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4
Q.
5
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7
Q.
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A.
11
Q.
12 A.
13
Q.
14 A.
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Q.
16 A.
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Q.
18 A.
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Q.
20
21
22
A.
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shor t ly ,
have
given them the
newest
vers ion o f the
case
plans?
Correc t ,
the approved
cop ies .
And
you 've
t a l k ed
with
them prev ious ly
about
some
of thes
t a sks
fo r
them to
complete?
Yes.
And the l e t t e r from the Department
of
Human
Serv ices
from
Lar imer County, Colorado,
you
were
the one
tha t
sen t
t h a t
to
me;
co r rec t ?
Co rrec t .
You have a copy
o f
t ha t ?
Not
a phys ica l - - hard
copy.
Okay, but you ' re the
one
t h a t
Yes, I forwarded t ha t .
To
me?
Yes.
And you ' re f ami l i a r with
the
people
from
tha t o f f i ce?
Jus t
t h a t ' s
who I ' v e
spoken with.
Okay. And
between
you and she , you ve
been ab le
to
s t a r t
some
of the i s sues t ha t are on - -
some of the
t asks
t h a t
are on t h i s l e t t e r ?
Yes ,
s h e '
$
been
ah
l
e t.O
p :""
ovide
sE:rvices
l l t
t
here i n t ha
eL e
n. t hai th
e p d. r en S C
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5
A
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7
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9 Q.
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A
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Q.
22
23
24
A.
25 Q.
3
with he lp ing the paren ts f ind
t hose
s e rv i ces and g e t t i n g
t hose
se t
up
so
we could c oo r d i na t e
with
her .
And a re you aware o f whether t he f a t h e r has or has not
coopera ted to t h i s poin t?
Up
u n t i l
l a s t week t h e re
was
a l o t
of h es i t an cy ,
but
whe
r spoke
l a s t
Wednesday
he
was very
coopera t ive
and
b a s i c a l l y j u s t s a i d h e s
ready
to
ge t the
b a l l r o l l i n g an
do what he needs
to do.
Okay.
Now
a l l
of t he se t a s k s ,
can
they be done in
Colorado
th rough t he Department
o f
Human Serv ices - -
excuse me l e t me
ask
a b e t t e r q u es t io n .
Have
you t a lk ed
with them
about how
to
meet
these
rcpc
r equ i r ements?
Yes.
Bas i ca l l y ,
j u s t co o rd in a t in g with them as f a r as
them
giv ing us the names of the
s e rv i ces t h a t
t he
p aren t s
can use , and then
having t he
p aren t s
s ign the
necessa ry
r e l e a s e s t h a t they
need
to so KVC can be in
communicat ion
with
t hose agenc ies
to
p o t e n t i a l l y he lp ou t
f i n a n c i a l l y
a
wel l
as
ge t the p rog ress ion of
how
t h e y r e dOing
in
those
s e rv i ces .
THE ICPC KVC REQUIRING RAYMOND TO TEST NEGATIVE FOR CANNA
DESPITE COLORADO BEING A MEDICAL CANNABIS STATE.
So
would
t be f a i r to
say
t h a t they re r eq u i r in g t h a t
t h ese t h in g s be done
be f o r e
t he y
approve an
rcpc
but
e f f ec t i v e ly , they a re working on t h ese in
Colorado?
Co rrec t , they
j u s t want - -
Go on.
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A
Q.
A
Q.
A.
Q.
A
Q.
A.
They j u s t want to make su r e
t h a t
t he p aren t s ,
you
know
a r e
complying wi th agency
r e que s t s and
a re g e t t i n g
t he
ne c e s s a r y
s e r v i c e s , and a re
be ing co n s i s t en t
in
m a in t a in ing t hos e
before we can r esubmi t
fo r approva l .
And a r e t he y going to do you know if t h e y r e going to
l e t
you
know when t hese
have
been
done?
3
I t h i n k
t h a t
w i l l a l l be in c oo r d i na t i on
as
f a r as ,
you
know
when t he
p aren t s
do
ge t t hos e
and
we ge t complet ion
o f
t hos e
s e r v i c e s
t h a t t h e y r e
do ing ,
then
we would j u s t
be
working with
t he
ICPC peop le
in
Colorado j u s t to l e t
them know
t h a t
t he se t a s k s have been comple ted .
And t hen y o u l l r esubmi t an ICPC?
Co rrec t .
And
then
assuming
t h a t t h e y v e done all t he t h i ngs
t h a t
Colorado has asked them to do
then
we can
s t a r t
r e i n t e g r a t i n g t he k ids wi th t h e i r p a r e n t s
in
Colorado bu
still keeping t he
case open?
f r om
my
unde r s a n
d
ng i s
tha
th a t we r e
0
happen , t ha
th o
cas
e w
Ou ld
s t i 1
be ope
n he r e ,
an
d th a t s
ju s
t ,
I
wO l l
Okay.
But
in
f ac t ,
i n the meant ime once t he ICPC i s
comple ted ,
t he ch i ld ren can then
move t o ,
not
Golden
...
Colorado , to be with t he
p aren t s?
Cor r e c t .
~ ~
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Q
A.
Q
A.
Q
A.
Q.
A.
And then
a f t e r t h i s i s done
then
we still have the case
p lan t asks
ahead of us;
co r rec t ?
Co rrec t .
3
And a r e n t
some
of t he case p lan t a s k s d u p l i ca t i v e of wha
Colorado wants to have done?
Yes.
And do you see t h a t t h e r e s going to
be - - once
t hese a re
done
do you
see t h a t t h e r e s going to be very
much
a t
a l
in
the
case plan t a sk s l e f t to do?
No.
I want to
say
it s
j u s t
being
ab le
to mainta in
housing being
ab le
to document v e r i f i a b l e income ... I m
t r y i n g t o remember o f f
t he top
o f my head what a l l i s
on
t h e re bes ides
wha t s
in f ro n t o f me.
Bas i ca l l y once the ICPC
i s
done and approved t h ey v e
mad
t h e b ig g es t
pa r t s
of what t hey need
to
do
to
ge t the
case
plan done?
Correc t ,
and
a f t e r t ha t ,
t hen Colorado
would
j u s t
oversee
to make
sure
t h e y r e still u t i l i z i n g t hose se rv i ces and
make
sure it s going
to be a
success ,
so
t he
kids
can go
t h e re .
MR
DEBENHAM:
No fu r the r
q u es t io n s , Your Honor.
THE COURT: Thank
you.
Anyone e l s e have any ques t ions fo r Miss Jackson;
Miss Fie lds?
CROSS EXAMINATION
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--------------
1
BY
MS. FIELDS:
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Q.
A
Q
A
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q
A
Was
t h e r e
a
meet ing
with the
schoo l rega rd ing
?
Yes, l a s t Wednesday.
Okay. Who p a r t i c i p a t ed ?
I t was myse l f ;
my
teammate ,
was
p a r t i c i p a t i n g t h e r e fo r a littl b i t
a t
t he beginning o f
the
c a l l ;
and
Raymond Schwab was t h e re
by
phone.
How b o ~ t Amelia?
No,
Amelia did
not p a r t i c i p a t e .
Do you have a r eason why?
The
r eason
t h a t
I was given
was
t h e r e
was
some i s su es
going on as f a r as she was j u s t ups e t in rega rds
to
not
be ing
a b l e
to ge t a
phone
c a l l with
on her
b i r th d ay , so she
was
j u s t
upse t
wi th t h a t , so Raymond wen
ahead and
p a r t i c i p a t e d .
We d r a t h e r
had
Amelia p a r t i c i p a t e so she
can hear
what t he schoo l was
say ing as
wel l , bu t
because
t h e r e s
a l s o one
phone, Raymond went ahead and
j u s t p a r t i c i p a t e d
in
t h a t .
What was t he outcome
o f t he meet ing?
They s t a t e d t h a t they would be moving forward
wi th
sp ec i a
educa t ion s e r v i c e s fo r
because h e s
a l r e a dy
r ece iv in g ad d i t i o n a l
s e r v i c e s
as f a r as pa ra
work i n the
c l a s s , but a l s o be ing ab le
to
u t i l i z e
ad d i t i o n a l s p ec i a l
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educa t ion
s e rv i ces , whatever the school
has
se t up and
Raymond was very coopera t ive in whatever he needed to do
and s ign and
he
provided h i s
e -mai l
and phone
number
to
th e school so they
can
co n tac t
him.
3
Q. Will
you
be able
to
t r ack and moni tor t h a t the appropr ia t
paperwork i s signed so t h a t
serv ices?
A Yes.
can
r ece iv e
t hose
Q And
does one
paren t have to
s ign , or
both?
A To my unders t and ing , t h e re only
needs
to be one paren t
t h a t needs
to
s ign .
Q What
has been
done to se t up meet ings with the school
regard ing
A. I v e sen t out mul t ip le e-mai l s to
both p aren t s
ac tua l ly
t r y i n g t o
s e t
up a confe rence l i n e with his school a f t e r
got
i n t o con tac t
with the p r i n c i p a l
the re ,
and she gave m
t h e i r plan per iod t imes but
h a v e n t
heard
back
yet
as
fa r
as
when we
can
se t up
a
conference c a l l from the
paren t s .
Q.
And would
t be important
give
age and the
fac t
t h a t we r e nine weeks i n t o t h e school t h a t t h a t get
done
sooner
ra the r
than l a t e r ?
A. Yes.
Q. Would t
be
help fu l to
have an
educat ion advocate here
l o ca l l y who can f a c i l i t a t e making sure
t h a t
the ch i ld ren
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25
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q
A.
a re r ece iv in g
s e rv i ces
in t he school , a l l t he necessa ry
s e rv i ces
in
the school t h a t t he y need?
I do
but a l s o
with t h a t I t h in k
it
would be very
impor tan t to cont inue to have
t he p aren t s
a c t i v e l y
3
invo lved .
I t
j u s t may
be e a s i e r with
somebody being
here
in Kansas j u s t to ge t the necessa ry s e rv i ces but I do
t h in k
t h a t t h e p a ren t s
still
need
to
be i nc luded in ll
o
those d ec i s io n s .
I do b e l i ev e fo r
r e i n t e g ra t i o n
in t h i s case , it would be
impor tan t
fo r
the
p a ren t s t o
s t ay
invo lved .
Has t h e re been any d i scu s s io n with
t he
school
rega rd ing
r e c e i v i ng speech
th rough the school , no
through an
independent
prov ide r?
No not yet .
I
was a c t u a l l y going to be co n tac t in g
to see if t he y
have
any ad d i t i o n a l s e rv i ces because I kno
too
o l d f o r
as she j u s t t u rned
t r y i n g t o g e t t hose ad d i t i o n a l s e rv i ces fo r
But what about
j u s t
th rough t h e school , with t he speech
p a t h o l o g i s t i n t h e school?
No.
No what?
No
she
c a n t access it o r no you
d o n t
know if
t h e r e s been
any
progress in
g e t t i n g
t h e
school
to
o f f e r
tha t ?
I m no t fo r sure if
t h e r e s been
any
pr og r e s s
a s f a r as
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Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
Q.
A.
3
- - - - - - - - - - - - - ~ - - -
t h e
school be ing ab le to
o f f e r
t h a t .
Okay but tha tTs something
you
can fo l low-up with?
Yes.
Because t hen
she could
j u s t g e t
it
r i g h t t h e re a t
school
opposed to having to go to a s ep a ra t e prov ider ou ts ide of
the school day?
Yes
MS. FIELDS: I
d o n t b e l i ev e
I
n t u r
f l d ~ r
~ n q : h l t h e
fa
t
he-r r
v
d
t o Jlo r a d
b y h i s 0 .,1:1 C 10 J. Ce- ?
t S my U
ll e r s t
an
d
ing t ha t
his
j::.b t
r -ans
e r r ed
to
C
o l
or ado .
And Raymond i s not
t h e
fa the r
o f
Co rrec t .
co r rec t ?
MS. FIELDS: I
d o n t
have
any
o t h e r ques t ions ,
Your
Honor.
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r---
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THE
COURT:
Ms. Inge l s?
MS.
INGELS:
No,
Your Honor.
THE COURT:
Miss Johnson?
MS. JOHNSON:
No,
Your Honor.
THE
COURT:
Any r ed i r ec t ,
Mr.
Debenham?
CROSS EXAMINATION
BY MR. DEBENHAM:
Q. Assuming t h a t the paren ts s ign what t hey need
to
do, in
fac t , I th ink
we ve
a l read y
es t ab l i shed
f a t h e r i s wil l ing
to s ig n whatever
he needs to , i he
s igns what
he needs
t
and cont inues h i s involvement and then KVC prov ides
the
o v ers ig h t ,
do
you
see
t h a t t h e r e s r e a l l y
any need
fo r an
educat iona l advocate?
A.
I t h i n k
it would b en e f i t as f a r
as
j u s t an
ad d i t i o n a l
s e rv i ce for the kids . I
th ink
it would be an
added
bene f i t
fo r
them.
Q. l
ou
ld - he
dlJ
aLi o na l
ad
vo
ca
e - -
waul
r L t.he educaLiona
a d
oc
a le ki
nd
of b s o n Lhe
Loes
o f t he
pa en
5?
I f you ve goL a pa e n l l h
a l
s
i n vo
lv ed
,
wo uldn l - n
educa i
ona
l advocaLe and the
ps
en 5 conce i va b
ly
e aL
o cis wi - h eac l ot..her?
A. I guess i t .
cou l
d
po1*e n
Lia
ly
b _ha .
ra
y ,
bL1 , I me.a
n ,
r ea l ly h
ones 1 y
don
kn
o : .
I
mean, obvious ly the
job of
the educa t iona l
advocate i s
to
make
t hose
f i n a l
d ec i s io n s
so I
d o n t
know
t ha t
they would be
ab le
to
coord ina te
wit
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Q.
A
Q.
A.
Q.
A
t h e p a ren t s ,
but
r t h in k t h a t i t h a t was something t h a t
would be a b l e
to be done it
would be a
g rea t b en e f i t t o
the kids to have t h a t ad d i t i o n a l s e rv i ce .
Even i
t h e p a ren t s
a re
wil l ing to
go ahead
and get
involved and ge t the rEP done?
r t h in k j u s t because of the p a ren t s l o ca t i o n ,
as
f a r
as ,
you
know
t h e y r e
not
a lways going
to
be a b l e
to
p a r t i c i p a t e by phone
when
phone
confe rence
comes up or
3
it j u s t would be
e a s i e r
to
have
somebody
here
in
Kansas t
kind
of
over see those
th ings .
Has the f a t h e r ever
t a lk ed
to
you
about being w i l l i n g
to
d r iv e back and
fo r th
to do t hose s o r t s o f a c t i v i t i e s ?
We a c t u a l l y
h a v e n t
had t h a t
c onve r sa t i on
as
f a r as
him
being w i l l i n g t o d r iv e
back
and fo r t h fo r
school
re l a t ed
t h in g s , so t h a t i s
something
we can
look
a t .
And he has
s a i d t h a t
h e d
be w i l l i n g
t o d r iv e back
and
fo r t h
fo r o t h e r a c t i v i t i e s ?
As f a r as v i s i t s .
MR DEBENHAM: Nothing
fu r t h e r ,
Your Honor.
THE COORT:
I have a ques t ion , and t h a
21 i s s in ce we were in cour t a t t he
d i s p o s i t i o n ,
which was back i
22 August ha ve t he pa
ren
s seen t h e ch i dren in
pe
rson a t a l l
23
24
25
A
DENIED ALL ACCESS TO THE CHILDREN FOR MONTHS
not s in c e
t e n
THE COURT:
Very wel l ,
thank you.
You
may have
a
sea t .
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1
All
r i g h t , unless anybody
e l s e
has
any
o th e r ev idence
the
2 wish to p resen t
to
t he Cour t today ,
I ll proceed.
3
I v e
heard your
recommendations on t he
i s s u es
here .
4
MR. DEBENHAM: Y
our: Hon
o r
,
i f I might I ha t.e
t.o
5 i nt e je c
t
n o t h ~ SSU€: , but we v e
got
Tha nk s
gi
v1ng and
6
i s t m ~ s co
ml.ng u , and
it would
be
nice
to be ab le to
do
7
v i s i t a t i o n s .
8
I know the v i s i t a t i o n s
have
s t a r t ed , I t h in k t h e y r e even
9 going to be s t a r t i n g a f t e r the cour t hear ing today, but we re
10
look ing a t and
hoping fo r poss ib ly supe r v i se d
or
p re fe rab ly
11 unsuperv i sed
v i s i t s
here in Kansas dur ing the Thanksgiving
12 va c a t i on and
dur ing the
Chris tmas
vaca t ion .
13 W e l l
probably be
coming
back here
a f t e r
t h a t
poin t
but
i
14 would
be very
h e lp fu l
to the
p a ren t s
to
know
t h a t t h e y r e
goin
15 to be ab le to see t h e i r kids on the
ho l idays
a t
l e a s t .
16
MS INGELS:
Your
Hon o I woul o b
jet:' t
to any
17 p ~ r
s e d
vi
s i t a t i o n
a t
t.h i s po in t in tl.1;ne o t
he
Co r t j l l s
18
i n
qu1 ed , a nd the Cou
t
s very much awa r e , w ue
ha
d not
h1n
g
19 bu t re s t s a nce n t h i ~ ~ a s e and i L s greaL now
lh
L the l
as
20 11eek t h ~ fa th e r ha s a p a re n t ly
de
l ded h e s
go i
ng
LO
wo r k and
21 he l p w Lh Lh i gs , but we r e Do l t o a
f o in t
t o have un superv i s
22 vi s i t a t ion I do n t i ~ v e
in th
i s Gase .
23 W
e
Ie
n 0
: had th
e g tesy
we have
- - t he whole i s su e
24 of t h e
r e fu s a l
to do the drug t e s t a f t e r t he f i r s t temporary
25 cus tody
hear ing
and
so it s not been
a
s i t u a t i o n where
these
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1
2
paren t s have compl ie d a nd wI l li ng ly done what has been
asked
o
them.
3 And over the ho l idays , as the
C o u r t s
aware, it s hard
to
4 get
superv i s ion
so t h a t
would
mean the
placement
would
have to
5
superv ise and I
d o n t th ink
t h a t s
ap p ro p r i a t e in t h i s
case .
6 t h i n k
t hey
should be al lowed superv ised v i s i t a t i o n through the
7 agency
as c lose to the ho l iday and around
t he ho l iday
as
8
al lowed and
every other
case , but
to have
any type o f
9 unsupervised
v i s i t a t i o n a t
t h i s poin t in -time, I
would objec t
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
to t h a t and I d o n t
b e l i ev e
i - t s ap p ro p r i a t e , and I d o n t th in
we can r eq u i r e the
agency
to
work
on
hol idays .
MR DEBENHAM:
Your
Honor,
if
I could add, we ve got
th ings going down the r i g h t
path
now,
I
would love to - -
I
th ink it would be help fu l
to
the
fami ly
under r e i n t e g ra t i o n
e f f o r t s
i f
we
can keep
th ings going
down the r i g h t
path t he re .
THE COURT: Thank you. I did read
t h a t
there has
been
t
he e
-as a
lJ]\ l ha
t
was
s
ub
m
t . l
ed t o on
October
14
th b
18 bot pa r en s
and
i t
w
as n
ega t
l v
9
f o r a ll
s
ub
s tances
and
th a
t s
19
t he o n
ly tJl\
I m a w re o f .
20 Miss
Fie lds ; i s t ha t co r rec t ?
21
22
23
MS FIELDS: I
apolog ize ,
Your
Honor.
THE COURT: I s
t h a t co r rec t ?
MS INGELS: J b e t ~ e th a t s
t he
on
l y one th? t s
24
bee
n
s ubmi t t ed
l .S
the r a n
do
m u
subro
t_t:
d th..rough I CP -.
25
THE COURT: And v i s i t a t i o n today
was going to
be a t
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4
, r - -
1
Sunflower?
2 I s t h a t cor rec t , Ms.
Jackson?
3
MS
JACKSON:
Vis i ta t ion today i s
ac tu a l l y
going to
4
be
superv ised
5
6
7
8
IS
2
-
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
THE COURT:
vi Sl t a t lon ?
MS .
T
~ h s
h ~
n g
to
be
done
fo r t h t
DRUG TEST FOR CANNABISITHC
THE COURT:
We l
l , th a t
' s what
~ s o u r t
be no v
i s i
a
ons un
l
UA
' s are
done
a nd
Now, I have
one
more q ue s
l o
n an t h a t
i s , the re
was
re fe rence to - - in the repor t about the
ch i ld ren
doing
a c t i v i t i e s
tha t was
somehow connected to
church
at tendance.
MS INGELS: T h a t s my
unders t and ing t h a t
the parent
were
not
a l lowing the
ch i ld ren to p a r t i c i p a t e in Halloween
a c t i v i t i e s
unless
the placements were t ak ing them to
a
church.
However it s
my
unders tanding t h a t s been reso lved ,
the
paren t s have consented to the
chi ldren
p a r t i c ip a t i n g in
t r i c k
o r t r e a t i n g and Halloween p a r t i e s .
THE
COURT:
Very wel l .
MR
DEBENHAM: Y o u ~ Ho nor , T mig h t me n io n t hat
UA
,as
aone
on e
14th
a
nd
t
ha
t wa s Qone i n p r epa r
a t
l on
01: t i
v i s i t ,
so
r d o n t
th
in k t h a a ~ wo u ld need t o
be done
f o ~
t od ay
becau
se o ne was
a) read
y d o ne b e fo re h i s v sl t.
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4
5
There may need to
be
UA s done before subsequent v i s i t s
but
I
d o n t
th ink the re
needs to be
one
fo r
t h i s
v i s i t .
MS.
INGELS:
You r HonOr I woul
d
~ k th
w
ju s
h ve
them go
downs t ai r s
pnd
do
one wi t h
our t
servi es .
Obviously, if t h e r e s nothing to hide, t h e r e s no i s sue with
6 having ano ther UA today.
This i s
the i s sue t h a t we ve
run
7 in to .
8
MS.
FIELDS:
Your Honor,
you
o rd e r d id
say
the UA s
9 should
be weekly, and
October
14th i s
not a week
away.
10 THE COURT:
I know t ha t Miss Fie lds , thank you.
11 All r igh t .
NOw
one other th ing i s , and
tha t
i s
I m
not
4
12 sure
what
the cur ren t address
i s
fo r
Mr.
Schwab because some o
13
the mail
t h a t the
county
has
sent , the
c l e r k s of f ice , has bee
14 re turned,
so
what i s , Mr
Debenham,
what i s your c l i e n t s
15
cur ren t address , j u s t for the record .
16
MR.
DEBENHAM:
It s the address
t h a t
i s
on
the KVC
17
repor t ,
18
19 THE COURT:
Thank
you.
The p r io r
orders
tha t
t h i s
20 Court has made
wi l l
remain
in fu l l fo rce and a f f e c t so fa r as
21
t h e y r e
not modified or i ncons i s t en t with the
orders
t ha t I
22 make af te rwards here .
23 The Court f inds t h a t
the appropr ia te
p u b l i c and
pr iva te
24
agencies
have made reasonable e f fo r t s to f a c i l i t a t e the
25
permanency p lan t h a t I wi l l o f f i c i a l l y adopt today. One t h a t
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